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Look out, trainers- Carrier has a new certification program called Energy Experts. Still finding out what they're teaching, but it looks like a faction apart from BPI and RESNET.



  • Man, I thought I had a lousy opinion of the HVAC industry, but you guys are HARSH!
  • Yeah? Why don't you publicly share some of your juicer tales Daniel...

    It's not the HVAC guys fault. It's a systemic problem. It's the system that doesn't have a way to quantify or incentivize quality. It continually re-enforces a race to the bottom based upon price. The consumer, the contractor, these people are players ON the field, they are not the playing field. They are not to blame.

    "How can we do this cheaper" which simply shifts the "saved" cost to higher energy consumption. This doesn't get fixed without access to energy consumption.

    We need to build a rating system where contractors compete for results. The best man wins the top spot, bragging rights, and the ability to charge more because he delivers more.
  • When you read the raters blogs or talk to raters at the conferences it is always "a/c guys only want to move boxes" or "a/c guys cant think outside the box" "a/c guys dont care if it is done right or not".

    Carrier is taking a step forward to train their contractors to think outside the box. When we install an air conditioning system without addressing envelope and duct issues, it increases their warranty costs due to early equipment failure. When a customer installs a new top of the line Infinity but still suffers from comfort and humidity issues, hot and cold spots, and excessive dust it makes them look bad. It makes the contractor look bad. It makes the industry look bad. So Carrier says enough is enough, we have to teach our contractors building science and make sure they are doing it right.

    And you guys still complain about that.

    If a homeowner is finding out about building science via Carrier's website, they obviously found it there because they think it is an air conditioning problem... perhaps that is part of the reason it is listed first. We should be happy that the homeowner is being directed to home performance. It also says that all components are "critical".

    Keep in mind that to participate in this program, the contractor must be RESNET Class I or B.P.I. certified. If being an energy rater makes us "window salesman" than you should be seeing your own reflection in that window.
  • Absolutely right, Jolene. I think the whole idea is fantastic- that's why I don't think it's a big deal to change these few individual graphics in the marketing. I hope it works, sincerely, and if we're all ultimately doing what's best for the client then it shouldn't be an issue to tweak the marketing so it's both appealing AND accurate.
  • Jolene, Corbett's comment earlier was pointing out how Carrier is putting the equipment as job 1 when it comes to improving overall performance. How many HVAC contractors (re: retailers) will actually do the right thing once they have the building science knowledge: 1) tighten the shell, 2) detail the duct systems then 3) sell them new equipment (but only for added efficiency, not capacity).
  • ... And Carrier is tired of replacing parts that burnt up due to bad install or design.

    ... And Carrier is tired of suffering blame/claims of crappy equipment when it's a design or install problem.

    Carrier Infinity Hybrids are practically the only equipment package I've sold. I see the problems and pressure from that side too.

    But Jolene, Who are you defending? You are not one of them now, you are one of us (like it or not!).

    Once you "see" the Comprehensive approach you can't unsee it. You are no longer an HVAC guy, you are a Building Scientist.
  • Ahhh, but that is the beauty Ted. We can be yin AND yang, the cookie AND the cream, HVAC AND building science. At least under energy raters start changing out compressors.
  • Come on Corbett,
    You may want to re-think this one.

    Since their inception back in the days of Jimmy Carter, “Home Performance” welfare programs have accomplished next to nothing in the way real energy savings, wasted billions of taxpayer and ratepayer money redistributing other peoples incomes, and now look to have created a class of self righteous smoke blowers with no comprehension of what it takes to run profitable companies. HVAC companies, are real companies, saving their customers real energy every day, unlike the BS crowd that does science projects on two houses a year, come in and out of the market like locusts with the government crack and still live with their parents.

    Do you really expect HVAC companies to listen to a lobby of folks who can’t find real work tell them not to focus on HVAC? You should be sending Carrier thank you cards for trying to legitimize an “industry” that after 35 years no one even knows exists.
  • How do you get an energy auditor off of your front porch? Pay for the pizza and give him a tip! LOL.
  • Lol. I love Pj's stuff, but I have issue with this: "HVAC companies, are real companies, saving their customers real energy every day". (I hope I don't also see subtle iimplication that doing LOTS work BADLY is some type of right to a badge of pride. "Yay, look at all the people we screwed this week!" If size and units are all that matters, may as well go back to the old way.)

    These guys are saving energy, ay? How much energy?

    "Lots?" "Huge amounts?" "You wont believe the savings?" My credit union rejected deposit slips I gave them with those amounts. They only accept REAL money.

    GOT LUCKY? Show me these mystical houses that these carnival shill HVAC guys say they have saved energy, I can probably find an equal amount where energy went UP after they came to call.

    My belief in promises or claims of savings is completely gone. It's painfully obvious to me that when nobody intended to track, promise to actual savings will graphically separate like a sand bag cut from a balloon. Claims without proof can no longer be allowed to stand lest they take root.

    I believe big HVAC companies who ARE embracing whole house approach (Halco and Isaac near me) appear to be saving people with more than "got lucky" consistency. They also see that technology, and determined people, will eventually make their results SEEable. So they recognize having it figured out, being prepared for that day will give them keys to the castle and make those who weren't watching look incompetent.

    The big companies didn't come to this game early, so they owe a debt of gratitude to the ones who did. Without them and the groundwork they laid, you think things would be changing at Carrier?

    I don't think so.
  • I actually agree with you, PJ- to be clear, I'm not out to hurt this program, I'd like to make it BETTER. The marketing from the top is the only thing at this point standing in the way. Here's my opinion as clearly as possible:

    In any battle between the Envelope and the HVAC, the Envelope wins. We've all seen this time and again, especially now that codes are getting tighter. I recently served a billionaire who had a very sophisticated HVAC system that wouldn't work at all the way it was designed to because the Envelope was interfering with it.

    If Carrier's marketing were to say "Your home's envelope is becoming a bigger influence on our equipment installations, so we're dedicated to ensuring your comfort and your equipment's perfection by analyzing and improving your envelope as well as your HVAC systems", I believe the Energy Experts would sell JUST AS MUCH IF NOT MORE.

    Anytime I hear someone say "This is a complex system, it's not as simple as you may think" I immediately take them more seriously and listen more closely- the awareness building is a huge part of our job, and clients tend to LOVE learning more about how their home works.

    If the Energy Experts have building science folks ranting about their marketing, it'll get on everyone's nerves- if we fix these few marketing talking points to the above, I don't see how it'll hurt the program one bit, and I do see that it would get all the 'BS' pros to be able to respectfully compete in the same markets, instead of feeling that they're playing by a different set of rules.
  • Corbett, I was at the same presentation and came away with a different perspective. The film clearly says that the energy audit pays attention to the envelope and looks for ways to reduce the building energy load through air leakage control and insulation. It then talks about how to maximize the efficiency of the delivery of the comfort systems in the house including duct efficiencies. I applaud Carrier for this approach. The one graphic you took exception to could easily be interpreted as the cost of the installations that are made with air sealing being the least cost option, then insulation, with HVAC system replacement being a higher percentage cost of the overall HP package.
  • Larry, just looking at the graphic Corbett referred to...


    ...I can't see how that could be interpreted as representing relative costs. That said, I would never expect Carrier to build a marketing campaign that shows envelope first, regardless of how seriously they embrace building science principals. At best, I would like to see a graphic that shows the three boxes as equal in size.

    I agree with you and others who applaud Carrier. By getting contractors to recognize the import of envelope on achieving true comfort and efficiency (given that their equipment is the largest energy consumer), hopefully a fair number will latch onto building science and pursue additional education opportunities. This cannot be a bad thing.
  • Thumbs up, Jolene, and David!